Accessibility in Tableau : A discussion with Ron Eisenstein

0:00Accessibility is a topic that often gets framed in the wrong context.

0:04When you hear that word, most people's thoughts jump to websites and making it easier for people to read or if we think about buildings.

0:11Making it so that everyone, including those with impairments, can more easily access a space.

0:17The problem with that approach is that when we apply that methodology to analytics, specifically tools like Tableau,

0:23We confine ourselves to thinking about how to make the tool more accessible in an additive way rather than considering it as a core purpose of the tool.

0:33In fact, if you step back and think about it for just one moment

0:36you realize that at their heart analytics tools are primarily accessibility tools for data.

0:42They have the power to transform raw data into a more digestible format.

0:46For instance

0:47You can build a hierarchy into a dataset, then aggregate that data to condense millions of records into a concise summary.

0:54They also offer visual analytics capabilities that cater to your visual perception.

0:58Stimulating your cognitive ability to ask questions and delve deeper into a narrative.

1:03To put it more bluntly, Tableau is an accessibility tool for data.

1:08Every step taken to consider accessibility by Tableau or by its users gives us more choice and agency about how we consume data.

1:16This was the profound thought that I was left with while talking to Ron Eisenstein about accessibility in Tableau.

1:22And more specifically, his journey into this topic and how it's impacted the way he approaches his work over the last few years

1:29We spent an hour talking about it and found a few places where Tableau can do more to bring accessibility front and center as a product philosophy rather than just a set of capabilities it supports.

1:42Ron also had some fantastic ways of explaining big topics in analytics.

1:46I think you'll agree when you watch this video, he is passionate about this topic, and I couldn't think of anyone better to talk to about this.

1:54As ever, let's get stuck in.

1:56Ron, how are you doing?

1:57It's been a while.

1:58Doing well.

1:58Doing well.

1:59Thank you.

1:59Thanks so much for uh connecting with me.

2:02Yeah, I I think I have to p give people the context because we started talking

2:06uh I think last year, towards the end of last year, and for one reason or another we put something sort of further back because of a 24.

2:151 release and we basically never well I never, sorry.

2:18I never followed up the connection.

2:20Equal equal accountability.

2:22Right, right.

2:23And then from I think what happened is I was doing the tableau

2:29Uh what what is it called?

2:30The Tableau um 24.

2:322 coming soon sort of roundup.

2:34And in my head I saw something, I was like, ah, accessibility, run.

2:38I need to talk to Ron.

2:40So watch that.

2:41I was like, oh that's fun.

2:44I would watch your videos.

2:45Exactly, exactly.

2:46So yeah, like um

2:48Uh I guess it's probably good to do an introduction.

2:51Ron, who are you?

2:52What do you do?

2:53And uh yeah, tell us a bit about yourself.

2:55Absolutely.

2:56Um I'm Ron Eisenstein

2:57I'm an engineering team lead for an innovative fundraising software company called EverTrue.

3:05I discovered Tableau around 2010 and

3:10I've been an avid user ever since.

3:12I think it was the first tool I ever used that allowed me to express myself fully creativity uh creatively and I think intellectually, so big fan.

3:23That's kind of my uh my my thing.

3:26Amazing, amazing.

3:27And and I guess one of the things I always like to ask people when they talk about Tableau is what's the first version of Tableau they used?

3:34Do they do they do they recollect that?

3:36Because I think that that gives you a time and place in the Tableau world, right?

3:40Yeah, I I have been a super fan for a really long time.

3:44My my enthusiasm began in Tableau five.

3:46Wow.

3:48That is that is that is the youngest tableau we've heard on on this channel.

3:53I think that by a country mark.

3:54So Tableau 5.

3:55Wow.

3:57And I was learning then from the Tableau Superstars at the time, the Andy Kriebles and Joe Mako.

4:04And I think I was, you know, we were reading PDFs back then

4:08about how to learn Tableau and it was like I didn't know what I was doing.

4:11I didn't you know it's like I learned Tableau completely wrong.

4:14And it's like I I use the show me, which was the wrong thing to do.

4:19Uh not many people know that still, so I think you're okay.

4:22Everyone everyone needs to show me.

4:24I think you're fine.

4:26And I then I went deep into the pills.

4:28I love I love learning the ins and outs of uh Tableau

4:31Good, good.

4:32And I guess um you know what had you been using before Tableau?

4:37I think it's also good to ask that because there's always sort of like um there's always a journey into Tableau.

4:42So I guess I'd I'll ask that, like what led you to Tableau in the first place?

4:46Yeah, I you know there was a little bit of resistance.

4:48I was I had some fear and trepidation.

4:51Um I was being encouraged to use Tableau.

4:53I had used

4:54Um back in the like internet days I was using uh sorry dot com days it was like Visual Studio V B

5:02something or other.

5:03And then it was Infomaker, and then it was Crystal Reports.

5:06And so I used Crystal Reports until 2010 and I was encouraged to

5:10do dashboards and I was like, what's the point?

5:12I didn't understand it.

5:13And you know, I didn't I just didn't it was like, what's the point of the pictures?

5:16And then I was like, oh no I see.

5:19Right.

5:19So I became a quick believer.

5:21That's like the traditional arc for most tablets, like kicking and screaming with their tables and then they exactly they get it.

5:29W was that your was that your experience?

5:32How did you jump in?

5:33It was kind of similar.

5:34I came from a digital marketing background.

5:36I came um I came from the world where social media was just taking off and analytics in social media was sort of starting to become

5:44a pretty big thing.

5:44Now it's just completely industrialized.

5:46But back then all we were doing is counting likes and tweets and I just didn't I just didn't find the sort of

5:52the efficacy in some of that.

5:54So I thought there'd be more to to data than there was.

5:57And so I started just working in communications and and a bunch of other areas and I

6:01I kind of bumped into Tableau through um someone I knew at university, Craig, who works at the information lab and kind of said, look, you kind of seem to be, you know, bubbling around this data topic in lots of different ways, but you're not just getting into it.

6:13Why not come at work at the information lab and just get stuck into it properly?

6:16And so that's uh that's sort of what led me to Tableau.

6:18Then I realized I've been using Tableau well before because I was interacting with

6:22some data that our university used and they were presenting it in Tableau Public.

6:26And so I was like, huh.

6:27So this is how they were doing it.

6:28And so yeah.

6:30Full circle in a way.

6:31So yeah, absolutely.

6:32It's a very

6:33Very interesting.

6:33Tableau 7 was my first version of Tableau.

6:36Okay, excellent.

6:36Not too far from you.

6:38Yeah, totally.

6:38About the same.

6:39Tableau seven, you can almost like those are such m monumental upgrades.

6:43Oh, huge.

6:44That was the LOD land or huge, yeah.

6:47Yeah, like and you know, Tableau ten was the design version, right?

6:51That was when the design

6:53fundamentally changed and when I say fundamentally it probably looks more different than today.

6:57But that was when we got today's sort of interface in Tableau.

7:01that didn't look like Windows ninety-five or something like that, right?

7:03So Yeah, that was a huge release.

7:05And that one I was I remember doing a I was a beta tester and I enthusiastically

7:11provided my feedback and they reached out and I'm quoted on the Tableau 10 release.

7:15Right.

7:16So it's like Ron Eisenstein, uh extreme super fan.

7:20Because I said it made me look like a graphic designer, something like that.

7:23Because it did.

7:24It like made me look I have a terrible drawer.

7:26I can't draw anything, but for some reason I can

7:29make things look nice in Tableau.

7:30So it kind of felt like it gave me the power to do that.

7:33Very good, very good.

7:34And you know, um something I started last year with Andy Cockgreve.

7:39You know Andy, right?

7:40He he gave me access to

7:43Some documentation going back all the way to version one of Tableau.

7:48So like I have I have all the documentation from version one.

7:53All the way till to today.

7:54And it's it's radical going through the documentation.

7:57Because of course, one of the big formats for the documentation was PDFs, as you highlight.

8:01But then also just some of the things you you go back and you look at it, you go, how do you build a bar chart?

8:06It's literally not changed.

8:07It's the same idea.

8:11The same cool concept.

8:12They got it right twenty years ago and here we are um today um in in the world of Tableau and

8:19I think one of the one of the things I have to say I'm I'm sort of ignor I was I've been ignorant about for a long time, and it's kind of why we're here today, is is accessibility, right?

8:28Like

8:29I I think more recently I have become more conscious of accessibility more generally for a bunch of different reasons, personal, but also just, you know, professionally, accessibility has become a topic that

8:40we talk about.

8:41And so maybe give people a a bit of a sample about sort of why you care about accessibility and see sort of what got you into into this sort of area before we go into it in a bit more detail.

8:51Yeah, absolutely.

8:52I think I've always had sort of a a a soft spot for um accessibility.

8:57I have my parents are healthcare providers.

9:01Um I've always like sort of thought about um community and and equity and accessibility is really about equity.

9:10And so my my stark experience with accessibility or with Tableau was an accessibility

9:20uh review.

9:22Right.

9:22And I think that's what really um galvanized and focused me um most recently around accessibility.

9:31Because my my idea of accessibility

9:34uh originated as a web developer and some really some basic tenets of web development using alt tags and

9:42um tables and all the kind of the the really the basics and I think I've observed it evolve over time and there really wasn't a lot of accessibility conversations in reporting

9:53But I think it it has come to the surface in the last maybe five to ten years, especially.

10:00There's there are larger communities.

10:03Um and best practices have sort of uh evolved and formalized and I know

10:11Tableau regularly has accessibility tests that they undergo.

10:17And I really started thinking about the most in this like

10:20this this in your face very like brutal takedown of my dashboard where you know I I had done dashboards like with this amazing team the central IT folks

10:33at Berkeley doing COVID dashboards and I thought they were relatively accessible.

10:38And just like when I started out with Tableau, you think you know something and then you just like

10:42discovery.

10:45Totally.

10:46Totally.

10:46I was like, they were sort of preparing me for the experience that they have.

10:52Reasonable but high expectations.

10:54And some of them you can't actually

10:57meet because of the limitations of the tools that you're using.

11:01Right.

11:01Um and so uh my degree is in polysiz on like what can I do to support their efforts

11:09Um and so I can kind of show you what what started us.

11:14So we had our go here.

11:19We had our review of this is an example of the COVID dashboard, and the feedback was most importantly that it wasn't as accessible as it should have been

11:31Namely, if you use a screen reader, which is a common device for those who are unable to use a mouse or they have visual impairments.

11:44Tab ordering is really important.

11:48And as you know, when you're building a dashboard, you're building it without thinking about tab order.

11:53And of course, they showed the example.

11:56And I downloaded the screen reader.

11:58And I think one thing about accessibility is I think that everyone feels like they're learning.

12:02And so the process of downloading and using a screen reader was illuminating.

12:07So I tapped through the dashboard and I was like horrified at the experience.

12:12And I started doing research and I was like, well, how do I get around this?

12:15And people are like, oh, all you have to do is go into the XML.

12:18And I was like, what?

12:19That's a hack.

12:20Like there has to be a better way, right?

12:26Whenever you mention hacks, I'm like, yes, this is not a solution.

12:30Yep.

12:31Yep.

12:31Join the club.

12:32I I I I literally need to to to to to make t-shirts about hats.

12:37Doesn't count.

12:39The the amount of people that

12:40come to me and say thank you for talking about hacks.

12:42I was like, you could have been talking about it too.

12:44Let's let's just be open about this.

12:46Like it's no secret here.

12:49Right.

12:50You don't know how it works.

12:51I mean like

12:52Fit I tried to fiddle with the XML and I was like, this is a nightmare.

12:56I mean, like, this is not something one should be editing directly.

12:59Yeah.

12:59Um, and so I you know, what I suggested is

13:03First, let's implement your suggestions, what I can implement, which was essentially a download stats option.

13:10Great, actually because

13:11Ultimately, people just want the underlying numbers.

13:14I think everyone, regardless of um accessibility.

13:17And accessibility, that that sort of speed to insight, that that really helps.

13:22So we did implement that and we said, you know what, let's create a video, let's create uh uh an idea, and could you help us advocate?

13:33for this feature.

13:35Nice.

13:36And uh it this YouTube video that my colleague created with the folks at Berkeley.

13:42Yeah, yeah.

13:42It got some attention from Tableau and

13:45I was delighted how responsive Tableau was.

13:49Because accessibility is one of those things that just it wasn't prioritized because people weren't clamoring for it, but it was always there.

13:55It was just under the surface.

13:57And the folks at Tableau reached out to our friends at Berkeley and started talking about this.

14:02And I don't know if it's sort of coincided.

14:04There's a

14:05Um but then we started seeing releases and I was I remember when you did, you know, I always watch your release videos and I was like, you were talking about accessibility and how important it was.

14:13I was I was

14:14I was beaming.

14:15Um maybe it was like maybe like three years ago.

14:17And now that uh now there's a PM and maybe uh I uh Blake, he's wonderful.

14:23Like yeah, really important.

14:24Fantastic, yeah, yeah.

14:25And it's interesting because

14:28My I think my experience of accessibility started mainly with colours and and there's a little bit of context which is I think

14:37Well, let me start with like the high level point here, which is just what is accessibility, right?

14:42Yeah.

14:42And I think people

14:45Think of accessibility in the domain that they typically come across it.

14:49So we typically talk about um people with impairments or disabilities, right?

14:54And that that's normally categorized into certain categories.

14:57So hearing, vision, um, uh, speech, um, and then you've got mobility, right?

15:03And then there's one which we don't talk often about, but cognitive, right?

15:08And actually, Tableau, weirdly, is a tool that's built squarely in the cognitive realm because it allows you to point a tool at a bunch of numbers.

15:18and use a visual form to make, guess what, the data more accessible, right?

15:25Exactly, exactly.

15:26The Tableau is an accessibility tool.

15:29Out of the gate.

15:30And it's such a it's like when you think about the term of accessibility, that is what it is.

15:35That is literally what accessibility is about, making people um more able to access something.

15:42that is otherwise hard in its existing format.

15:45Connect to XML, connect to JSON.

15:47Tableau just lets you connect to it and look at it visually.

15:50So

15:51It's really interesting that I think accessibility isn't framed in that context.

15:56I.

15:56e.

15:56, everyone benefits from accessibility when you do it well.

16:00And you have to go it's more of a scale, right?

16:02It doesn't start from

16:04It's not like there's a score and from that point onwards, it's accessibility onwards, right?

16:08It's actually, it starts from zero.

16:10Everyone benefits up until a certain point, but then you have to do more to get more people over the threshold.

16:15the further up the scale you go.

16:17And that's what makes it inclusive i in in that sense, right?

16:20And that's sort of where I am today.

16:22That's sort of this is the journey I've come sort of come across.

16:24But you know, very naive understanding of accessibility to where to where I am now going.

16:28Like this is a fundamental

16:30I think that needs to be thought of differently actually for you then to be able to do it well.

16:35And I think Tableau's sort of on that journey as well.

16:37Yeah, I think that's an astute observation and that and that is precisely what Tableau has allowed

16:43uh folks like us to achieve and and and you know the power of a software engineer in the hands of a user.

16:49And now you see with wave three and wave four they want to empower

16:53More folks, right?

16:54Yeah.

16:54Business animals.

16:55How do we get more people focused on being data driven?

16:58And you're right, I think, you know, I I have sort of reached that same sort of view or similar view, right?

17:04Not you you phrase you described in a really

17:07um a nice way and I think more broadly than I was thinking about.

17:10But you know, I think the speed to to to insights and how that's achieved and through just dashboard design best practices.

17:21You're moving toward accessibility.

17:24Yeah.

17:24And that happens through continual refinement.

17:27Just like the dashboards we do, you're always refining.

17:30And I think feedback is a really important part of

17:34The the process, I I had the privilege of talking to the advancement tug accessibility leader, Colin.

17:41He's wonderful.

17:42Um and you know he was giving me some feedback and it's

17:45You know, what made me feel better was, you know, I think everyone kind of feels like we don't know enough.

17:49And I think that's true.

17:50Yeah.

17:50And that's why you always talk to people smarter, right?

17:53You talk to you talk to the PMs who, you know, that that is

17:56It's it's I think it's it's incumbent on all of us to to learn.

18:00And then we're then we can educate ourselves.

18:03We've seen like the tableau come up with the ability to edit uh alt text

18:09and keyboard navigation for the grid view, including mobile, changing the keyboard navigation default from left to right.

18:18And these things are really exciting and encouraging.

18:21Um but I I I totally agree with you.

18:24It's like we are our jobs are are about all about accessibility.

18:28Exactly.

18:29And then one other area which again is something that

18:33I think it's a pretty important conversation in the community and it's about sort of where the product is going.

18:38And specifically in this context, I want to talk about the technology because we see Tableau moving a lot of capabilities to the browser.

18:45And something I wanted to sort of get your take on is, you know, Tableau's got this heritage of features so from from such a long time.

18:54And they've generally been, you know, we you know

18:56They've been s they've not been bolted on over time, but it it's very much an evolution of a very well understood idea, right?

19:05And with this transition to web, I wonder if there's more opportunity to to to to encompass accessibility through the web because of the existing advancements elsewhere in the web.

19:15And actually one of the downsides of you know sticking around with actually Tableau Desktop is the only piece of software, the Tableau ship.

19:24to a computer.

19:25Like I always want to just remind people that because Tableau Prep Table Tableau Prep is web software packaged to run on your desktop.

19:34That is 100% the case.

19:35It runs on something called Electron.

19:37Cloud and server run through the browser.

19:39Pulse in the browser.

19:40Literally the rest of the platform is all in the browser.

19:43Desktop is the only piece.

19:45That runs on software.

19:47And guess where accessibility I think is the worst?

19:50I think it's still desktop, right?

19:52Because all the accessibility has been added on to the browsing experience, not so much the authoring experience.

19:58Right?

19:58So yeah, I sort of what's your what's your sort of take on that?

20:01Do you do you think there's more opportunity in in the web realm or um do you think there's actually more they could do with desktop?

20:09Um that that it that you know that is planned or has happened that I'm not aware of that actually sort of counters that sort of proposition I've I've put.

20:17Yeah, I think within desktop there are fewer, I mean I think I would probably want to get a Tableau developers

20:26perspective who has an impairment to get their sense right because I I don't think I can speak for them.

20:32What I can speak to more is the experience of someone who is interacting with the web browser.

20:38And that's actually a really good point, 'cause I think I just I I conflated those two things, right?

20:45I didn't I didn't I didn't actually

20:47sort of clarify I should have clarified that in my question in itself.

20:50So that that shows you sort of I've sort of got a bit of learning to do that.

20:53But it's absolutely right.

20:55There is accessibility in the author experience and there's accessibility in the consumption experience.

21:00Two vastly different halves of of sort of the tableau world, right?

21:04Yeah, I think there's a lot of opportunity, especially

21:08In the web experience, in the Tableau Online, in the Tableau server, that web experience and the ability to interact.

21:17with visualizations in a way that's meaningful and and one of the things I I haven't had a chance to do that I want to do is I have text

21:25in a dashboard that I can show you later.

21:27I don't know how a web screener web screener is gonna gonna handle it, right?

21:31Like you wanna have you wanna be able to control the experience.

21:34And I think tab ordering is one of those things.

21:37Because it's really what is, and as I the more I use Tableau, the more I think about our work is really about data storytelling and all of these features, these bolt-ons that you're talking about.

21:47have been uh an attempt to include more people and also showcase and empower people to do data.

21:55storytelling.

21:56Like this the storyboards was one of those like bolt-ons that didn't really catch on.

22:00Um, you know, ask data, like all of these things, like the the intention is there, right?

22:06There's a lot of how do we do the next thing?

22:08And I think

22:09I think there's a lot of opportunities still in the in the web for accessibility.

22:14I just imagine at some point your dashboard will just tell you stuff.

22:20Yeah.

22:21And and in a way that's that's what yeah, technologies like Chat GPT pr potentially have to offer, right?

22:27Because those tools

22:30seem to create the bridge between intent and language in a way that computers haven't been able to do before, which is which is fantastic.

22:36And I I you know

22:38I think Tableau Pulse is an interesting implementation of AI.

22:41It's it's not actually the one I thought Tableau would go with first, but I'll give it I'll give them the benefit of the doubt and kind of let them play that out.

22:49I I partly think that's because

22:52You know, a product like Tableau can't give wrong answers.

22:54So they couldn't go down a path.

22:58They couldn't go down a path that would enable that.

23:01And that means they have to start with the more boring side of AI.

23:04basically, which is the summary side of A AI.

23:06Like let AI summarize these facts in a way that's sort of, you know, easy to consume.

23:12They can't go down the sort of interpretation and intention in a way that OpenAI or Google can.

23:18And get things wrong.

23:19Like, even if you get it wrong one percent of the time in a three thousand person organization, that's too often.

23:24Like such a great observation.

23:27It's so true of the work that we do.

23:29It's like

23:30It's it's it's not it's not it's just perfect has to be perfection or it's all wrong, right?

23:34Like they have this very controlled environment.

23:37Yeah, it's funny.

23:37Uh like um I don't know if you follow technology, but

23:41It has the same tolerance for inaccuracy as a keyboard, right?

23:45Because if if even just one letter doesn't work one percent of the time

23:55And actually MacBooks had that issue with the specific uh a range of keyboards they made which were too thin.

24:01And so people were getting the key stuck.

24:04And so the keys would fail 0.

24:06001% of the time.

24:08But that meant in a 1,000-word essay there'd be three typos.

24:12You didn't know right.

24:14And it's such a funny like way to think of the scale of mistakes and and where it leads product design.

24:20But I know that's a that's a huge tangent.

24:22No, that's a really interesting conversation because I think what we're talking about

24:26Like AI and analytics.

24:28Yeah.

24:28I mean, because we're really talking about like CEOs, what CEOs want and what's possible and Tableau is moving very uh

24:36uh deliberately there.

24:38Yeah.

24:38But yeah, keyboards, accessibility, it's it's all the same realm, right?

24:41Like um so if I if I if I bring it back to um sort of

24:46the core of you know what are the big things that Tableau have done in the last few years?

24:50Because I I maybe I'm I'm I'm sort of wrong about this, but I do get the sense there is a lot more momentum.

24:55We've got a product manager, Blake, who's who's doing some fantastic work, sort of

24:59uh pushing certain things through.

25:00So what are those sort of big things that I you you think have enabled accessibility to be

25:06Something I'm not gonna say a big thing because you know I'm not sure marketing always follows through with you know with that intent, but let's say something that people should consider doing more of because they are now things they can

25:18they can do about that topic if they choose to sort of go down that road.

25:22Yeah, I think the the bare minimum that well and just

25:26So just what you're mentioning, Blake, I think for the just a few years ago, accessibility is reaching the what's new section, and maybe these accessibility features have happened.

25:35And we know with every release there are always things that aren't in the release page.

25:39Release notes, yeah.

25:40Yeah.

25:41So those are always interesting.

25:43But these are getting top billing, and I think that's really important.

25:46I think when we're when we're looking at accessibility.

25:49Um, I think there's things you can do independent of the tool.

25:53So there's parts that are part of the tool, like editing the alt text and um

26:00And up, you know, of course, upgrading so you can take advantage of the keyboard navigation defaulting.

26:06But some of the best practices around accessibility, using clear titles, having clear documentation, clear headers.

26:15I sometimes use ChatGPT for inline documentation to rewrite what I have to make it a little clearer.

26:22I think consistency in navigation, layout, and structure

26:28Um I think those those are some big ones.

26:30So would you promote things like a UI kit?

26:32I've had um uh uh uh um name escapes me.

26:37See he's gonna kill me.

26:38It's gonna kill me.

26:42Robert Janizek.

26:43Oh God.

26:47Very high stress.

26:52I could have just cut that gap, you know, make it make it should be.

26:56I'll leave it as long as it should be.

26:57We've had Rob come on to talk about things like UI kits.

27:00I think the value of UI kits is they do promote that sort of consistency and design.

27:04And potentially something like a UI kit can have accessibility built into it, which then enables many more people to just be f out of the block thinking about accessibility.

27:15without even having to do the work because you've given them a starting point that has that in mind.

27:20Is that something you've seen in your work or is that maybe is that maybe still quite a young area in the in the in the Tableau world?

27:27And the you i kit you're talking about sort of the templating approach just to make sure.

27:31Yes, exactly.

27:32So um Rob has like two things that are sort of

27:35Explain them briefly.

27:35The UI kit, which is like a Figma tool, which allows you to prototype and design sort of a tableau dashboard before you actually go and build it.

27:43Then there's a second bit which is

27:44the actual template in Tableau that has a pre-built like skeleton that you then just drag your sheets into and it starts to think about that.

27:53That's those are sort of the two realms.

27:54Yeah, no, I think that makes I I saw that I remember seeing that video.

27:58It was very, very cool.

27:59Um I I do think it's really important for you know you're trying to achieve a few things.

28:04You you want your dashboards to look professional.

28:07You want them to be adopted and of course to have some action oriented elements and accessibility all woven in and I think those UI kits and templates are really important.

28:19We have

28:20a a less sophisticated version of the that with templates like this is generally the framework, this is the shading here.

28:28I don't want to completely limit

28:31the folks I work with around everything because there's an element of creativity and I think sometimes if you say just these seven colors.

28:39Um but uh you know I and I one of the things I think is really important for any tableau developer and something that I've emphasized is the importance of understanding pre-attentive processing.

28:49And I remember that was one of the first videos.

28:52So that's the same thing with speed to insight and decluttering.

28:56Because if you don't have the foundation just like the green pill, the blue pill, then you can easily overclutter and make your dashboards less accessible.

29:05So I think that's

29:06Like a a pre a pre-watch before I do an I've done any training on like these are best practices for shortening the time to insight

29:14Yeah, could could you give like a little like short summary of what pre-attentive I think you talk about pre-attentive attributes in relation to pre-attentive processing?

29:22Is that sort of where you're going?

29:23I don't know if you can give like a

29:25A s a quick snippet of w how you describe that so people know that this is actually something to go look for.

29:30Totally, absolutely.

29:32According to some research, every single second

29:35100 million bits of information is processed in your brain without even you recognizing it.

29:43It's pre

29:45before and attentive before you realizing it.

29:47So it's in the primal cortex.

29:49There's a direct line from your visual cortex to your primary cortex in your brain.

29:54The picture is like right there.

29:56And the first thing you notice is luminance

29:58And then the next level after that, I spoke to I educated myself talking to like a neuropsychologist is David Salisbury.

30:05Brilliant, right?

30:06Okay.

30:06Um

30:07The more you learn, right, you know you know nothing.

30:11So I'm like, let the experts do his thing.

30:13Um so then what they discovered

30:16in 1980 I think it was 1984.

30:18And this was on the Tableau website, which got me so excited because they understood this.

30:23Like this was early on where

30:25when they looked at um how quickly people realized outliers were there.

30:31And outliers is when you turn your head.

30:33It's even when you're driving, no so those outliers.

30:35Right.

30:36And the very first thing you noticed faster than absolutely anything else,

30:40is height, something above something else.

30:43Right.

30:44So this element is this element.

30:46Then secondarily it's length.

30:49So it's easy to tell the outliers from length, but not as quickly as top, but top to bottom.

30:56And then goes slope and angle, which then explains why pie charts

31:01Take a little bit more time to process and people get all upset about pie charts.

31:06Um depends on the use case, right?

31:08Yeah.

31:09And then and then there's color density.

31:12And so it's very valuable to dual encode dashboards.

31:16And some of it just becomes common sense.

31:18You're like top to bottom, left to right, most important.

31:21But then you understand the why, not just doing it.

31:25Right.

31:25Amazing.

31:26I think I think that's the best explanation of that.

31:30Huge compliment from you.

31:32Because I've read that.

31:33I've read that in like Stephen Fhew's book, and it's

31:36boring in the book.

31:37Like honestly, like your formation was just so much more better and engaging.

31:44This might have to turn into a short or something.

31:51So thank you thank you for doing that.

31:53And and and that's that's

31:54In a way, that's a testament to the fact that you've spent time doing this.

31:57It it it takes time to be able to explain something that complex well to people in a simple way.

32:03So

32:03Um yeah, no.

32:05Thank you for thank you for doing that.

32:07While you were doing that, I was I was behind you probably saw me looking away from your screen.

32:11Um you're probably thinking, why is Tim not paying attention to

32:20I picked up on something you said, which was, you know

32:23the release um the release notes, right?

32:26And something that a lot of people don't know is that Tableau have what is called the marketing release

32:32Notes which go out to like the Tableau blog.

32:34That's the list you see, that's the video I cover.

32:37And then you have this, which is the Tableau Release Navigator, which is a blow-by-blow list of not just features that are new, but changes as well.

32:45Okay.

32:45And something I did re literally half an hour before our call is I went into this and I thought, hmm, how would I know about all the accessibility?

32:53um features the Tableau have worked on.

32:55And I think, huh, surely I should be able to go to this and just type in accessibility and I should be able to find them.

33:01Because you'd think so.

33:02And I actually did exactly that.

33:05Well, firstly I have to be able to spell accessibility.

33:07Uh you can see I've got it wrong there.

33:09Thank God I've got a I'm gonna right-click correct my spelling kind of problem.

33:14It's not gonna let me right-click.

33:17So let me do this.

33:18Let's see.

33:19X let's do this.

33:20Accessability.

33:24I believe spell check is coming soon, isn't it?

33:26And Tableau Cloud and Yes, that was a huge announcement.

33:31We don't have time for spelling.

33:32Let me see accessibility.

33:35Just Google it and get my s typer corrected for me here.

33:39I was always out of the first round in in elementary school spelling B.

33:45So if I hit enter, nothing.

33:47And and and so the term accessibility is not actually used in the in the features list.

33:52So you wouldn't you wouldn't even if you were just using sort of the natural sort of documentation, this is searching sort of the descriptions about the features as well.

34:01Um and this definitely works if I type in cloud and hit enter, it works, right?

34:06So like it's not uh it's not that it's not working.

34:09So the term accessibility is not being used along with the features.

34:13Now

34:14That's not a big deal, but the thing is, and I always say this about the Tableau product, how would you know what to search for if you were looking for the accessibility features?

34:22Because you have to intimately know what they are and what they what they are are not terms that anyone

34:28would be searching for.

34:29Like, you know, tab order is not something you'd be searching for in context of accessibility.

34:34And so what I did was I I actually found this page.

34:38Which I think um Kelly um I don't know if you know Kelly Gibbton, but this is basically something that Blake seems to be updating, which is basically like a running order of the different

34:47uh different notes in accessibility over time.

34:50Um and it seems to be like the greatest hits of Tableau and accessibility and, you know, the the kind of

34:56the previous the the big changes in previous versions but also um some of the newer things aren't in here but uh uh he did update it fairly recently so

35:05I guess the point I'm making is if you wanted to go one place and find out everything that's chains in accessibility, that that place doesn't actually exist.

35:12You kind of have to have

35:14what I would call deep knowledge of the community, to know who to ask, to know where to find it.

35:20And and so

35:21in a way, I think that could be like a great first step in terms of making this more readily available.

35:26And it's not it's not um you know this isn't on Blake.

35:29I I know how like Tableau works and the reason this is on a forum is because probably Blake

35:33can't get the buy-in to get a whole page done, right?

35:37Like the the the way I got to this is I actually found um if I search accessibility or where am I also I'm I'm clicking on the screen um

35:45I was clicking on the screen recording.

35:47I got to this page and it links to the FAQ, which is like, huh, the tableau have a page.

35:52Um product accessibility, but it it's not a showcase like, you know

35:57Tableau pulses, right?

35:58Like Tableau Pulse is a bit of a showcase of what that capability is.

36:02So I like I know for a fact the way Tableau works, this is not this isn't, you know.

36:06Blake needs to be empowered to be able to fill out this page to really talk about what Tableau's doing in this space.

36:11And that's why he kind of has to link to the something he can update more ready.

36:17Yeah.

36:17And I know he's absolutely passionate about it.

36:19He's invited people to speak with him.

36:21And as long as I've used Tableau, there's never been an I think that that

36:26Tableau dashboard is a really useful thing.

36:28And I don't did Tableau create that or is that a user?

36:31Yeah, it's it's such a funny thing.

36:32It's cool product marketing.

36:36This is um and and not only that, it's done in multiple different languages as well.

36:41Oh wow.

36:42So it it it's actually quite an it's quite an accessible resource, but let me tell you this, the only people using this are the people who know about it.

36:49Because I use it a lot because of course I do features and what's new.

36:54I have made videos about it and I still keep linking it to people and people are surprised by it.

37:00They're people who find it new.

37:02And the other thing you can do, um, if you select let's say this has turned into let's say, let's say let's do desktop and

37:10And and and do that and then say uh you can take all these um what do we call these add-ons.

37:17You know, Tableau hates that word, but that's what they are.

37:19So that's

37:20That's what we'll call them.

37:21And you can kind of go through these and and just drill down to specific version or specific year all the way back to 2019.

37:28So it's actually quite a powerful resource.

37:30But here's the thing.

37:31If you're let's say upgrading uh let's say server, in this case this also means cloud, and you're going from let's say 21.

37:394 to 23.

37:423.

37:42As an example, right?

37:43It tells you all the net changes between those versions.

37:47Which is an incredibly good list, right?

37:49So this is a this is a very good list.

37:51Um and then if you click on it, it actually lets you click and go to that

37:56that that that that specific feature and and and and things.

38:00So it's also a good way to browse a documentation.

38:03And the secret thing I love about this is it's obviously a workbook and you can download it, which

38:08means the data about the releases is also in there, which then means you can you can sort of track that a little bit more.

38:14You can kind of play around with some of the capabilities.

38:16I've done some analysis on this data.

38:18So

38:19If you're into like features of Tableau and you want the data source, this is uh this is a anyway.

38:23Another that is so cool.

38:24I know that's like I mean talking, it's it's access to information I didn't know.

38:29Like I vaguely knew that there's this dashboard

38:31But I I mean the thing is like I didn't know how detailed it was and also the deprecated and changed, like that's like a dream.

38:36I'm like, I wanna know.

38:38It's like

38:39Because people note you start noticing things, it's like they change the iconography in the dash in the, you know, server or whatever version.

38:46It's like that's the kind of stuff I want to know.

38:48And also that I know.

38:50And retired.

38:51So if I just get rid of new and I just keep um you just uh ab other than new features you get deprecated, retired, and uh changed and updated.

39:02as well.

39:02So when they change a feature, the change of capability, you get the update as well.

39:06So it's a very good way of tracking deltas as well between because you know this happens.

39:11Something has changed, but you're like

39:13I swear this used to work a different way.

39:15Our behavior used to work a different way.

39:16It's like, okay, now um now this, you know, now this works as it should.

39:21And

39:22And here I'm doing a delta between these two releases, so you you don't see quite as much, but when you go to like more recent versions, it has been updated since twenty three dot three.

39:32Um it doesn't have 24.

39:341 in there.

39:34Now what's funny is whenever I make a video, about three months later product manager messages

39:39me and goes, oh yeah, you know that thing you said wasn't up to date?

39:42It is up to date now.

39:46It's like you you are the reminder social.

39:50So if you're watching this tableau, let's get this updated

39:53For 242 at least.

39:54That would be fantastic.

39:55Because I think it is a useful resource, but it's only useful if people use it.

39:59So that's why I also promote it.

40:00All right.

40:01Use it or lose it.

40:02You can't complain about this if you're not using it.

40:04And here I am helping spread the word.

40:06But anyway.

40:08Accessibility features I think could be better marked on here.

40:11I'm not saying it should be like a separate category, but I think the term accessibility

40:15Or some sort of tag or something we can use.

40:18Maybe maybe it's even like there's a workbook version of this which has been pre-filtered for accessibility that's, you know, posted in the in the forums, uh, like, you know, where was it in this page or no, this one.

40:29In this page would be sort of a nice touch.

40:31Um but yeah.

40:32But that I think that's a great idea.

40:34That's following on from your point about, you know, marketing and and and and sort of

40:39No, looking at that.

40:40But I don't want to sort of lose track of what we're talking about.

40:43Um, you've got a workbook, right?

40:44And I I I don't know what you were planning to do with the workbook, but I I thought

40:47Let me make sure I give you an opportunity to do that.

40:50Otherwise we could we could stay here and talk for hours on end about pretty much everything that we're coming across.

40:57Let me stop sharing here again.

41:00Alright, absolutely.

41:02Let me share my screen.

41:04This is a dashboard.

41:06I've been working on

41:08Nice.

41:09Ever true.

41:10Nice.

41:10And this is a fundraising dashboard.

41:14Right.

41:15Taking inspiration.

41:18It's our clarity product from

41:20Um the accessibility best practices, including the use of iconography and dual encoding.

41:28And the purpose of the dashboard is to demonstrate

41:33Donors who give to a charitable organization and those who increase their giving from year to year, they decrease their giving from year to year or maintain their giving.

41:43And I think one of the things I've learned is

41:46There has to be a quick takeaway for those who aren't as sophisticated or don't want to go deep into the details.

41:53Right.

41:54And so

41:55um the almost dual encoding of and sort of quick takeaways and maybe even chat GPT inspired uh descriptions that allow people to read it.

42:06Um starting with I guess

42:08uh a title that I sort of scrutinize that has as few words as possible that's right that's bolded.

42:14Um from the top, right.

42:15Okay, yeah.

42:16I didn't I didn't even think that far, but like

42:19Businesses love to give their dashboards like wonderfully long, illustrious titles like how do I

42:26Try to do it ish.

42:27It's still longer than I normally do, but I was like, it's a lot going on there.

42:31Yeah.

42:31And I sometimes use Chat GPT and I'm like, how is I said

42:34I gave ChatGPT two suggestions and it was like, no, do this other one.

42:39Not for this dashboard, but sometimes it comes up with like

42:42Good ideas.

42:43Profound answers, yeah.

42:44Yeah, yeah.

42:45Whoever they scraped that information from will do a fantastic job.

42:49That's funny.

42:51I I love teaching, so um I always embed a oh nice like a training video here so then people can like I think this is accessibility, right?

43:02Like trying to get people and you're enthusiastic.

43:05Oh, that's so smart.

43:06Is that like a little um web container?

43:09Sorry, I'm I'm one of these.

43:10Yeah, yeah, yeah, totally.

43:11No, I love it.

43:12I love that you love I love what you're interested.

43:14Yeah, it's just a web container and then it's a loom video that you embed.

43:16Yeah, yeah.

43:19That is so elegant.

43:20Awesome.

43:20It plays, it plays.

43:21Cause I I thought, wait a minute, is that like I thought it was opening a new tab, but no, you've kept it

43:27in context, which again in a web world means that you open that tab, it's gonna play the video.

43:32I know in desktop it gives you all these warnings about like links and stuff.

43:35But actually once you get it on um on the browser in Tableau Cloud or Tableau Server, that video just plays.

43:41And and Loom is a fantastic tool.

43:43I I don't if you if you click on it again, I think it's just worth

43:46showing people like what effort did this take you?

43:49It's a three minute video, right?

43:50Like how how hard was this to do?

43:52It I mean it took me five minutes.

43:54Exactly.

43:55Exactly.

43:55Yeah, it's so simple.

43:57Right through the web.

43:58Yeah.

43:58And they're hosting this video, right?

44:00So you're not having to worry about being like me and editing videos and

44:03and stuff you just get recorded and like I wish my life was this easy honestly.

44:09You should see what I'm gonna have to do to edit this video and I'm like looking at this and Yeah we've we've gone to lots of different places

44:14Yeah, I mean I think it's great because I think it's also when when people start looking at a dashboard, they're initially intimidated.

44:19They they're sizing it up.

44:21Yeah.

44:21It they almost do it like a Sudoku problem, like they are are they smart enough to figure it out?

44:26And I really wanna

44:27alleviate the sort of cognitive burden and and the intimidation where you just say, oh, if you ever aren't aware, there's a learning training.

44:35Oh good, it makes people feel a little better.

44:37And then for those who like every last detail in the world, then it's every and this is something for me to remind myself.

44:45And so this is sort of internal documentation.

44:47I would love for

44:48screen readers to be able to read this and I don't know whether it it is yet.

44:51And I think with um the latest versions of Tableau, there's sort of the the dashboard guide with sort of maybe perhaps we'll eventually deprecate this.

45:04And then this is the for those who don't want to do any analysis, it just describes what's the takeaway of

45:12what's up here and it's just a you know mail merge of sorts where you embed it

45:19And then you have call outs, right?

45:22What are the takeaways?

45:23Like what's the big message?

45:25The big message is this and this, right?

45:27Like the sentence.

45:29And then people typically wanna like go not in this version, but they wanna go and see the underlying data.

45:35I remember early on

45:37Like I've I've always wrestled with this notion of like we want to make it more native that be able to download the underlying data.

45:44And so we try to do as much as we can with like

45:47click to see the details and kind of have a smooth user experience.

45:52Wow yeah um and the dual encoding here right like

45:56The dual encoding you have the sort of interpretation you have triple, I guess.

46:00Like the color, the locate the sa uh

46:03But the height and then this down arrow.

46:05Yeah.

46:06Yeah, yeah, yeah.

46:07Just trying to emphasize stuff.

46:09Yeah.

46:09Yeah.

46:09Yeah.

46:09Yeah.

46:10Um and then kind of navigate and navigate back and download the understanding.

46:16Right.

46:16So you can you kind of give them a um a way into the into the what I would say the contextual world.

46:25Because analytics products are typically

46:27Focusing on analysis and I I've got another question to ask you in a minute, but that analysis piece uh at the moment it still has to happen elsewhere from where the work is done, right?

46:38Like

46:39Tableau talks about doing stuff in the in the in the flow of work, right, in Slack.

46:43But really, actually, um this data needs to be living in ever true in in in lots of other places for it to be of value.

46:50But let me ask you this as well.

46:52How do you how do you democratize the decision of what is the big takeaway, right?

46:57Because typically an analyst

47:00is at the very bottom of that food chain.

47:03Right?

47:04And so I I I I totally hear you on like, you know

47:08You know, there needs to be the big takeaways.

47:10How do you arrive at that?

47:11Is that is that a process or is that something you've been able to kind of just use your understanding of visual analytics to be able to sort of get the point across to people that say, look

47:22If you look at this data, this is what it's telling you.

47:25And it's more about the facts rather than it is about sort of the interpretation and actually

47:30people can interpret what they need to from these big takeaways and what's in front of them.

47:35So yeah, sorry, it's a difficult question.

47:36I love that.

47:37I love that question.

47:38Yeah.

47:39And I would say for fundraising dashboards, there is a design aesthetic and goal of having an intersection of reporting and process

47:51And that requires a deep understanding of what end users care about.

47:56It requires deep empathy.

47:59It requires listening.

48:01subject matter expertise, talking to people who know more than you and what they really care about.

48:08And they it's it's sort of like it's a user requirements.

48:11prop gathering process in which they don't come out and say it, but I know they care about it more than anything.

48:17For example, we're really concerned about the number of donors is decreasing every year.

48:24Right.

48:25Those are comments that you sort of clue you in on what matters.

48:29And so I've worked in the fundraising space for 23 years.

48:35And so worked with some incredibly talented people.

48:39like David Libel at Northwestern and Aaron Moran who I work with and all sorts of folks um uh in annual giving professionals right um you know at Berkeley and um and so it's

48:52That that's how I sort of talk to the best, I think, people who know and then I'm like this is what they care about.

48:59And then I show it to people who care about it and then they give me feedback.

49:02Like this is version a hundred.

49:05Yeah, exactly.

49:06Exactly.

49:07If I synthesize what you've just said in a brutally simplistic way, you listen to people, right?

49:14Yeah, a little bit is super simple.

49:16Like pay attention, make it simple.

49:20Don't make it like don't use a lot of colours.

49:23Yeah, exactly.

49:23Care.

49:24I think care is even one word of like Yeah, exactly.

49:27Yeah.

49:28And you know, I I see a lot of video about from data analysts, you know, new data analysts in the space, you know.

49:36But actually the soft things are just super simple and they take practice.

49:41You know, how do you listen is a much more difficult question to answer because

49:46Um there's lots of techniques in that.

49:48There's also a little bit of synthesis.

49:49There's also a bit of what the client says and their intentions sometimes aren't the same thing.

49:55And so you have to pass what they say

49:58And I know when you say you're talking to your colleagues, there is an im there's a there's an implied sense of um understanding you've built over the years that you've

50:07you've done in the industry.

50:08So when someone says this, you know they are going to be needing these three other things, right?

50:13And funny story, remember where I when I told you I was doing analytics?

50:18in Twitter and social media that was for an alumni fundraising organization.

50:30I didn't I didn't stay in the industry long enough, but yeah, like it's it all comes in the same place.

50:35But anyway, no, back to your point, like it's it's just simple stuff like listening.

50:40But the actual skill to do that and the experience of doing that

50:44Does take time and practice and you have to immerse yourself.

50:47It's almost like uh method acting, right?

50:49Like you can't do that thing well unless you live that experience a little bit.

50:53and you get familiar with the language and sort of the um the tone.

50:57And it's hard to do that for lots of industries if you're like a consultant, but if you're in a business setting, I think it is much easier for you to

51:03to do it because you don't just do Tableau, you do a bunch of other things as well in the business.

51:07And so that gets you close to the business in a way that you know no Tableau consultant could ever get close to.

51:12And so use that sort of superpower.

51:15to get stuff like this.

51:16And and another thing I'll say is this looks like something that could be in the Financial Times.

51:20And it's funny because when I look at, you know, I forget the gent the the gentleman from the Financial Times who runs um

51:27you know, is he's made a book called um it's it's there's a book he's written about how to explain charts, but I think the the principles you just outlined

51:36It's funny how they lead you to a a style and a theme that feels similar to to something else.

51:43And it's because you're borrowing from the same principle.

51:45It's not actually you're not you haven't done a Financial Times uh visualization.

51:49A financial Times viz is not a Financial Times vis.

51:51It's actually just the simplicity and approach and the methodology that gets you to this place that feels good and then therefore kind of leads.

52:00you to to a really good place.

52:01So yeah.

52:02I love those points that you're making.

52:03I think there's a couple of things.

52:04One, I think we draw inspiration from various peoples and and incorporate into our views.

52:09And I've drawn inspiration from the Tableau community, from the New York Times, from Nate Silver, from various places.

52:16And and the other thing that really resonates with me is that muscle that you're talking about.

52:20And as a consultant, I I when I did that for three years, we had our own firm.

52:25That was the big that was the biggest growth in my tableau world.

52:29Right.

52:30taught like these extreme situations where you had to deliver.

52:33You couldn't just independently work on things.

52:36Yeah.

52:36Right?

52:36High pressure.

52:37And it was a muscle building and hard work.

52:40Yeah.

52:40Yeah, yeah, exactly.

52:42Yeah, there is a there is well, I dunno.

52:45Um I've been a consultant for a decade, so like uh there is a little bit of weathering, I like to call it.

52:51Um you're not a consultant to to you know

52:55To to to run the ship when it's sunny and nice.

52:58You're a consultant to like to guide it through the s the roughest seasons storms, right?

53:04That's when you get called in.

53:08And it's hard problems.

53:09They're not giving you the easy stuff.

53:10They're giving you like here is this massive issue.

53:13But it but ultimately you come out a better developer.

53:16Like I in those three years I got more out of it than those

53:18the previous, you know, years combined.

53:21So your your your the duration of your if you've been doing Tableau for ten years, like that's like

53:2830 years just like in a one person shop.

53:31It's quite deep indeed.

53:32Indeed.

53:33So this is this is fantastic.

53:34So like um one of the things I'm going to do, we won't do it today because I I think we you know we've been channeling for some time, but one of the things I'm going to do is

53:41Try and try and go through the experience that someone who has accessibility needs would need.

53:45And I think that sort of can be done in a couple of ways.

53:48One of the ways you showed me before the call was um visual impairment.

53:52So the color blind checker

53:54Um are you able just to sort of show people that uh briefly and sort of see how you tested your dashboard in that?

53:58Because I think that's a very simple thing that everyone can do that takes again another like minutes to do.

54:04But actually brings that awareness straight into to what you're doing.

54:07So yeah.

54:08And this is one of those things where it's like, you know, people are what people are like, don't use a lot of colors.

54:12Well there's a lot of reasons there's a lot of reasons for that, right?

54:15And so this really this color-blindness.

54:18com website I just found where you can upload your your uh screenshot and

54:24See what it looks like in various conditions, most of which I'm unfamiliar with, but with a really simplistic design.

54:38It renders essentially the same.

54:41Yeah.

54:41It's when people encode things in fifty colors and it has to be blue.

54:47Because that's our that's our brand.

54:49Yeah.

54:49It just doesn't have any meaning to folks, potentially.

54:53Just a quick, easy test.

54:54Very simple.

54:55Yeah.

54:57Uh yeah.

54:57Uh like it's it's sort of interesting as well because I kinda wish Tableau brought some of that into the product, you know, from from a very like

55:06In a very simplistic way.

55:07It doesn't even have to be like um like a big a big thing.

55:11Like what if you your dashboard view just had a little toggle at the top that said like

55:16Um no not not accessibility because it's a little bit more nuanced than that, but um like you could simulate different um viewing experience.

55:23You can already do mobile and tablet, so maybe you could hijack that experience and and just use the dashboard one to like

55:30Toggle through different sort of color fields.

55:32That's brilliant.

55:32That's brilliant.

55:33That's that that like yes.

55:37Yes, that's so cool.

55:38Have it integrated.

55:40Yeah.

55:40Right?

55:40Like that is and talk about the browser.

55:43Yeah.

55:43Right?

55:43Yeah.

55:44Your comment about the value of the browser.

55:46Like that is such a perfect test.

55:48Yeah.

55:48Yeah.

55:49And and it could even just be in Tableau Cloud and Tableau Server in the server IV.

55:53So

55:54You're on there and you can kind of go through and test it.

55:56But you know, even I know Maureen Stone.

55:59Do you know Maureen Stone from Tableau?

56:01She's so she she is the uh uh mother of colour in Tableau and

56:07I I don't think she's with Tableau anymore, but she was part of Tableau research for a long time.

56:12And there are very subtle things that the color palettes do depending on the size and shape of it of even a mark.

56:21They change the color so that what you see like is actually what you see.

56:27So very simple example, if you select blue or red

56:30Depending on the amount of blue and the amount of red, Tableau subtly changes the blue and red, so it remains the same to you.

56:37Oh wow.

56:38Because at different sizes and scales, the intensity is different.

56:41And so, you know, if you look at the color palettes in Tableau, those have accessibility considerations built into them.

56:49That is why it's blue and orange.

56:50That's sort of that's something that people

56:52You know, you see a Tableau dashboard, you see blue and orange, you go, Oh, that's been done in Tableau.

56:56People think it's a brand thing.

56:57No, it's an accessibility thing because red and green obviously has those challenges.

57:01And so

57:02Accessibility is actually at the core of the product, and it doesn't take that much more to go from that to you know what what I've just suggested.

57:08How else could you kind of simulate this?

57:10this the this challenge and you know with the um tab order as a as a very basic um thing I think another thing they could do there is when you're previewing a dashboard um

57:22Have a pop-up that set like that calls out that accessibility.

57:26Because the the thing about that is, I don't know if you've ever done this, but I only discovered the accessibility uh tabbing uh capability by mistake.

57:34Because I happened to smash my keyboard when I'd already clicked something and I was like, wait a minute, you can tab through this and I saw something get highlighted and I was like, how did that highlight get there?

57:45And I

57:45You know, I didn't know.

57:46I just don't know these things.

57:48And why would you know?

57:49Like and so just calling those things out can can can even help people who don't have disability or

57:55you know, accessibility needs, realize there's another way to navigate the screen that is actually beneficial.

58:00Some people are faster with the keyboard than they are with the mouse for for lots of good, you know, uh lots of good reasons.

58:06So

58:07So many ideas.

58:08We should have like a little workshop just like just smash through these ideas.

58:13I mean you're hit you're hitting on sort of the the brilli the underlying brilliance.

58:17And uh what I find like uh persistently um inspiring about Tableau is they thought about this stuff.

58:25And then when you see other tools that are trying to emulate it, I think of like

58:28Tableau is the piano and they're the kazoo.

58:31And I'm like, yeah, in the bake off, you know, it's it's it's quite clear.

58:36I love I I really appreciate um this opportunity and

58:40what you what you provide the community.

58:42I I I I listened to I watch every one of your videos.

58:45I'm like, all right, what do you have to say?

58:48You always have some interesting insights and I recommend you to

58:51Ah amazing, amazing.

58:52I have to be careful.

58:53I you know, there's I think T Table's going through a very interesting transitional time and you know I sit on the more optimistic side of that that transition, right?

59:01I you know, I'm always

59:03I, you know, the reason I make the videos I do is because tablets help me in my life and in my career, and it's very simple.

59:09I read I read content and access content from

59:13you know, uh Jonathan Drummond, Andy Kriebel, all these people.

59:15Like I've learned so much from them.

59:17And it was so obvious to me that okay, like if I get to a place where I actually know something about

59:21tablet even even if it's so basic and simple I'll just regurgitate it to the world and hopefully that helps someone and it turns out it does and and so of course

59:31That's why I stay on the more optimistic side because even if you don't like what's being done, it's still helping some people somewhere do their job and get things done faster.

59:39Uh uh and so hey, you know, uh sometimes I I sort of fall on the wrong side of that, which is I'm too keen and I'm too excited about, you know, very basic things when tablets should be focusing on other things.

59:49But on the broad scale, I think, you know, there's so many people doing great stuff with Tablet.

59:54I wanted to get you on because I think from an accessibility perspective, you're you're definitely you're doing you're doing what you need to do to

60:02like understand the topic not just not just because you have accessibility needs or whatever it's actually because you're passionate about it and that that comes through in your understanding.

60:11We've talked many times, you know, talked with Blake.

60:14I've talked to you now twice before this uh recording.

60:17I think we could have recorded a podcast series just based on the number of conversations we had.

60:23Time flies.

60:24Exactly.

60:25Absolutely.

60:25I I really, I really appreciate your time.

60:27I think one of the things I'll pledge to do um in the next month or so is I will do that.

60:32I'll do I'll record the video unedited of going uh through a dashboard.

60:38Um

60:39With I think probably the screen reader on my Mac because I think Apple's ability papabilities are actually quite good.

60:45And so I kind of want to see what that experience is like.

60:47I want to try and get to a visualization on Tableau Cloud.

60:51Starting from my desktop.

60:52Nothing.

60:58I'll put a blindfold on.

60:59We'll just fill the experience.

61:00I look forward to that.

61:01And that will sort of be very much

61:03Um maybe maybe there's a dashboard you can you can send me a link you could recommend and we can kind of do the comparison of one which does have accessibility sort of considered and and and one that doesn't.

61:13So you can kind of see the contrasting.

61:16Yeah.

61:16Sort of perspectives of actually reaching those things and and understanding how they work.

61:21Absolutely.

61:21Great idea.

61:22Sounds great

61:23Good.

61:23We we just managed to keep it under an hour.

61:26All right.

61:27We said we said we said like 40 minutes, but here we are.

61:30Talk all day.

61:33I really appreciate I really appreciate you joining.

61:35So th thank you so much

61:37Likewise, uh amazing.

61:38I appreciate it too.

61:39It's an absolute pleasure and honor.

61:41All right, take care.

61:42Take care.

61:42Thanks.

61:43Bye.